As we speak, both within ufology and within the segments of the political and public spheres that are beginning to wrestle with this enigmatic topic, we are seeing ongoing debate about how much the intelligences behind what we colloquially refer to as “the Phenomenon” should be framed as a threat–or at least a “potential threat”–or not. Some argue “better safe than sorry”, in lobbying for an approach that assumes this is a threat until proven otherwise.

As we delved into in the last episode of Point of Convergence, much of that particular argument leans on the notion that we have pretty much zero understanding as to the intent of these non-conventional others. But, as I pointed out in that episode, the wealth of experiencer testimony at our disposal would suggest otherwise, for within that extensive body of data we see consistent messages provided by these non-human others to the human beings who have interacted with them.

But even beyond this particular matter, which is already controversial because it ventures into questions around what kind of data should be considered “legitimate” and “trustworthy” or not, the lore we just referenced goes well beyond offering potential answers to the question of whether or not this amounts to a threat or not, even touching on ultimate matters such as the nature of reality, and even an alternate history regarding human origins.

What is perhaps most challenging of all to our secular, and still largely physicalist (that is to say reductionistic materialist) Western civilization, is notions that arise in the experiencer data that speak to what might best be called “spirituality”. This challenges our typical conceptions because most see this entire matter as involving technology and a potential clash of space-faring civilizations, not one delving into ultimate meaning and the evolution of souls. And yet, that is indeed where this body of data goes, which perhaps only adds fuel to the fire, in terms of why this lore is not taken as legitimate by the powers-that-be.

If experiencer lore stretches our expectations regarding what the UFO Phenomenon is even ultimately about, in what precise ways does it do so? And how do these elements in particular make our contemporary meaning-making machine uncomfortable? And how might the ignoring of those elements, simply because they are unexpected and inconvenient, potentially create a scenario where we miss the forest for the proverbial trees? These are precisely the issues we’ll seek to gain clarity around in this, the 107th episode of the Point of Convergence podcast.

Even as our modern mainstream society begins to grapple with the notion that non-human intelligences of a sophisticated nature are in our midst, piloting remarkably unconventional, and beyond next-gen technological craft, there is still a key component of this cultural conversation that is missing: and that is the consideration of the testimony of those who’ve apparently already encountered these very intelligences. Now, if one were unfamiliar with experiencer lore, one might conclude that we have almost zero understanding as to the intent of these various non-human others. In fact, this is basically what some, otherwise well-meaning, pro-disclosure advocates, have publicly stated – that we have no idea as to why they’re here, or what they want.

But if and when one does pay attention to said experiencer lore, it quickly becomes evident that nothing could be further from the truth. Now, does that mean that we should take everything said in these circles at face value. Certainly not. We still want to apply standard witness credibility criteria to these statements. And we also want to look for the aspects of the testimony that represent the greatest consensus. But to ignore this testimony altogether is not only unwise – after all, wouldn’t we want to hear what has been reportedly said to those who’ve interacted with these beings? – but it’s also inaccurate/inauthentic, because it lets those new to the conversation believe that this is a complete unknown, which only adds to fear states that are already driving far too much of our contemporary societal dialogue.

When one does pay attention to experiencer testimony, it becomes clear that these beings have been speaking pretty pointedly to some very specific issues. One element that is brought up frequently is that we as a species have lost touch with our connection to the planet, and even more overarchingly, to the larger cosmic community of which we are all a part. Furthermore, not only is that disconnect unfortunate, but it is also highly consequential, because it is that misunderstanding that is giving rise to the very existential threats we are now facing as a collective.

But beyond even these clearly and regularly stated messages, part of the communication also frequently touches on how we’ve lost touch with our most essential nature: a nature that stretches beyond the parameters of this one individual lifetime. In fact, it’s made clear by many of these non-conventional beings that this loss of context is driving us into a kind of individual and collective madness, one where we let pursuits like materialism become the orienting principle of our lives, even when that dogged pursuit begins to devolve into disease in our collective consciousness, reflected in, among other things, ecological disaster and frayed human mental health.

Of course, much of this speaks to the notion of “journeys of souls” and even of “soul contracts”. And, if that’s the case, what does this say of the nature of these beings? Are they “spiritual” figures, or “biological ones”, just like us? Of course, that false dichotomy is at the very heart of our present conundrum. Just who are these beings? And how does their very nature, and even their technology, tend to collapse our present paradigm? And how does the potential of that very collapse serve as the seed for a new way of being; one that restores the relationships we’ve so deeply fallen out of alignment with? These are the ultimate matters, both technological and metaphysical in nature, that we’ll seek to engage with in this, the 106th episode of the Point of Convergence podcast.

When we take the time to look back at the history of the UFO phenomenon in popular culture, perhaps no book has had an impact greater than Whitley Strieber’s groundbreaking 1987 work Communion. This was a book that, on the one hand, caught the world by surprise, depicting shocking, discombobulating encounters with beings of a decidedly otherworldly nature, despite the fact that the experiences seemed to be happening – at least partially – very much in physical reality, and were experienced not just by Strieber, but also by his family and by guests to his cabin in upstate New York.

While shocking in its claims, one can easily make the argument that the reason the book had such an impact on popular culture is related to the fact that so many people resonated with the material within, and – even more pointedly – with the now iconic cover of the book, depicting what has since become known as the quintessential “grey alien”. The being depicted on the cover of Communion was not only provocative, but also – to many thousands of people around the world – strangely familiar. Of course, the question that inevitably arises from this fact is: why?

Were these memory fragments suggestive of a reality where untold numbers of human beings were being abducted in a similar manner to Strieber? And, if so, what did this mean of the nature of the apparently extensive enterprise these beings were in the midst of conducting? Perplexingly, while elements of the encounters seemed to be happening in something like an alternate state of consciousness or in an alternate, ethereal realm, other elements, involving medical examinations and the extraction of reproductive, genetic material, seemed suggestive of a much more “down to earth” purpose, perhaps involving the hybridization program that has become such a lynch pin of our contemporary understanding of the Phenomenon.

These questions were of paramount importance in 1987 when this book was first unleashed upon the world. Since then, the significance of the material has only become even more pressing – as many of the future visions experiencers like Strieber had then have seemingly come to pass, suggesting we are even closer to some consequential turning point in human history; a moment these beings spoke so pointedly about. Because, to be clear, the encounters did involve warnings; warnings that seem particularly prescient in light of how things have unfolded in human civilization since the time of Strieber’s initial encounters.

And, importantly, the messages have not stopped being communicated. Even during a recent series of conversations I had with Mike Masters, chief proponent of the so-called Extratempestrial Hypothesis – the notion that some of these beings are our very own descendants from some future point in humanity’s evolutionary trajectory – additional elements became clear, aided by synchronistic events suggesting these overarching intelligences are not only able to defy our understanding of physics, but sometimes even able to orchestrate an ordering of the very events of our lives.

But to what end? And in preparation for what? Who are these beings, and how are their efforts to not only interact with us, but to chart a new evolutionary path forward, related to the events arising in our midst even as we speak; events that threaten our very place on the planet as we have known it? These are just a few of the questions we’ll seek to engage with in this, the 103rd episode of the Point of Convergence podcast.

Those familiar with ufological lore, and especially how it ties into our deep religious history, will tell you that UFOs have been around for as long as we have, and perhaps even longer. Indeed, it has long been acknowledged that the assumed non-human intelligences behind these manifestations may be responsible not only for the inspiration and direction of our most foundational meaning-making models – that is to say, our religious traditions – but also for our very origin as a species.

That being the case, some might find it a stretch to believe that the times we find ourselves in now are somehow unique when it comes to this enigmatic topic: Yes, they’re here, but they always have been, directing affairs mostly in shadow – à la something like Jacques Vallee’s control system hypothesis – so what would be different about now? – or so the thinking goes.

While that’s an understandable perspective to have, and while we should always be on the lookout for bias in our contemporary reading of history, there is indeed compelling evidence to suggest that what we’re seeing with this Phenomenon since the turn of the millennium – and especially over the last few years or so – is indeed worthy of note, suggesting that we may very well be heading towards some crescendo point, where our very relationship to this Phenomenon, and, for that matter, to reality itself, fundamentally changes.

The evidence for this notion arises not just in the increased activity of alien intelligences in our midst – though we have indeed seen a rise in reported accounts of sightings and engagements with the craft apparently piloted by these so-called NHI of late – but also via reports from experiencers, those uniquely tuned into these various alien groups, who have seen visions of imminent changes that speak to the coming of a foundationally different world.

While even these two data points – the increased sightings/interactions and sense from experiencers that something is coming – might not be enough to convince many, these are not the only elements we need to reckon with here. Just as important in this equation is the rising tide of challenges our civilization is presently facing; challenges so daunting that they threaten our very existence.

These matters include climate change, geopolitical conflict rife with ever more catastrophic weapons of mass destruction, and the sudden rise of artificial intelligence. All three of these are particularly troublesome because they are being met by a center of gravity of consciousness still driven by fear, scarcity and what our most ancient and enduring spiritual traditions – not to mention many of these Others – call “the illusion of separation”.

Those familiar with ufological lore will also know that the trajectory we’re presently on as a human, earth-based civilization, is precisely the one that these various non-human (and non-conventionally-human) intelligences have long warned us about. Their historic concern about our ever more technological focus, unmoored from an accompanying increase in our level of consciousness, is central to the messages delivered to humankind via the experiencers we’ve already discussed. Suddenly those warnings and prognostications, going back decades, seem strikingly prescient.

That said, we know that timing is particularly challenging to predict and parse out when it comes to these otherworldly admonitions. And thus, the question still remains: just how pressing are these issues, and just how close are we to some fundamental transformation of life as we have thus far known it? Furthermore, how might the very real march towards official disclosure we’ve seen of late be informed by all of this? These are the very thorny – yet crucial – matters we’ll seek to gain clarity around in this, the 98th episode of the Point of Convergence podcast.

The so-called UFO Phenomenon is a tricky affair because, no matter when and from where you enter the discussion, you’ve inevitably going to face having your assumptions and expectations stretched. Indeed, to those really paying close attention to, for instance, the wealth of experiencer data that’s been amassed over decades, it’s clear that a discourse around the nature of potential UFOs and aliens in our midst eventually leads to a much deeper rabbit hole where our place in the universe and the very nature of reality are in play.

Of course, one of the biggest leap those who enter this discussion face is the notion not simply that aliens exist “out there” – somewhere, perhaps in some corner of the vast expanse of the Cosmos, but that they’re here, and perhaps have been for as long – and undoubtedly – even longer than we’ve been looking for them.

But if that’s true, skeptics ask, why aren’t we finding clear, undeniable evidence for their presence, and, for that matter, why don’t they simply land on the White House lawn to put the matter to rest once and for all? It’s absurd to think they’re here, these skeptics confidently assert, but then chose this bizarre stealthiness.

Absurdity you say? Indeed – we’ve got that, in spades even! Welcome to the UFO Phenomenon as it actually exists, rather than how you’d like it to be based on your 21st century Western expectations and assumptions – one of the largest and most questionable of which is the belief that if they were here, we’d be able to detect them with relative ease.

Another major deeper dive into the proverbial rabbit hole comes when one comes to grips that these various others are not only here, but are actually interacting with various human beings – and that this circumstance is much more commonplace than the mainstream media and present political set would have you believe.

And even once you’ve digested that interactions really are happening, you’re then confronted by just how diverse these interactions are. Indeed, they seem to cover the proverbial gamut: from positive encounters with supportive, inspirational entities, to frightening encounters with beings who conduct obtuse medical procedures and examinations that seem, on the face of it, to be much more invasive than is necessary – especially if these beings are as advanced as they purport to be.

Yet an even more paradigm-stretching matter arises when people hear of encounters with beings that humans come to find they recognize, and even feel a pre-incarnate familial connection to. And often these encounters involve the person being reminded of a particular mission they are here – in this incarnation as an earth human – to fulfill. Of course, this brings to mind for some people the religious notion of angels and demons – as old as human civilization itself.

But these beings often arrive in spacecraft and have their own home planets. Are these the same entities as are reported in religious traditions, or different ones altogether? And how are we to make sense of these particular encounters from within the dazzling complexity that is the UFO Phenomenon? These are the very matters we’ll seek to disentangle in this, the 76th episode of the Point of Convergence podcast.

It was at this time last year that the inaugural edition of the Point of Convergence podcast was launched. In that very first edition I discussed some of the broad brush topics I planned to cover in the coming weeks and months. I didn’t know exactly what direction the podcast would take, but I had a strong sense that it would attempt to weave together topics that are often taken as distinct and disconnected: topics such as alien beings and the UFO Phenomenon, psi phenomena such as psychokinesis, telepathy and clairvoyance, and the mystery of life and death, revealed with growing clarity through phenomena such as out of body experiences, and even more so, near death experiences.

I also understood that central to our inquiry would be the underlying role that consciousness seems to play in connecting each of these subjects – which are often collectively referred to as “the contact modalities”, almost like spokes in a wheel. Over time it has become increasingly clear that, as I recently heard it put, it’s not so much that we possess consciousness, as that we, on the most fundamental of levels, are consciousness.

Somehow, despite the temporary sense of separation we often experience in this particular earthly iteration, we are actually part of capital “C” consciousness, which, as quantum physicist Erwin Schrodinger put it: “Consciousness is a singular of which the plural is unknown. There is only one thing and that which seems to be a plurality is merely a series of different aspects of this one thing, produced by a deception, the Indian maya, as in a gallery of mirrors.”

While the UFO Phenomenon, which has been our most central topic of inquiry, might at first seem like it doesn’t belong in such a conversation, I think it’s clear, based on the various cases of contact with non-human intelligence that we’ve covered over the last year, that nothing could be further from the truth.

Indeed, the connection between UFOs and aliens, with psi phenomena and out of body and near death experiences, is not even secondary and subtle, but often quite immediate and direct. In fact, we’ve come across cases where deceased relatives show up in the very same encounters where people meet and interact with apparently alien beings. We also know that the altered state of consciousness that experiencers of the UFO Phenomenon frequently describe involves striking overlap with elements of out of body and near death experiences.

Now, speaking of those various experiences of contact with apparently non-human, alien entities, it has been informative to see how different people have described different kinds of experiences in cases we’ve covered over the last year. While there are too many striking similarities to count, there have also been some striking differences, perhaps suggesting, as I’ve postulated for some time now, that we’re dealing with different elements within one totality we conveniently, colloquially title “the UFO Phenomenon”.

Now that we’ve reached the one year mark of this podcast, while also reaching the end of this calendar year, now seems like an apt time for a retrospective of sorts, looking back to compare and contrast the various elements of these otherworldly, anomalous experiences.

Over the last 365 days or so, we’ve covered nine specific cases of contact with alien intelligence. And now we’ll seek to take an overarching view of those cases, considering in what ways they’re similar, as well as distinct, and in what ways they did or didn’t somehow touch on the other “contract modalities” we discussed earlier, in this the 53rd episode of the Point of Convergence podcast.

For getting on for 80 years now, people have been trying to expose secrets kept under lock and key by deeply embedded, so-called “black ops programs” that many believe are holding back irrefutable evidence pertaining to knowledge of, and interaction with, non-human intelligence. These same people believe that when this secret is finally exposed to the world, it will bring about revelations that will mark a key turning in the course of human civilization, ushering in an era of inter-galactic cooperation with a larger family of civilizations.

Of course, that’s for the people who believe that these Others mean us good, and are here as part of a peaceful mission to help us ascend to the next development level. There are other people who agree that a secret is being kept from humanity, but that this is in part because the news is not good: that these Others are dominator races whose aim is either to conquer us via overt means and technology that greatly eclipses our own, or via some insidious plan that involves a hybridization program meant to turn humans into something else entirely.

But this picture still isn’t complete – because both of the above conceptions of what’s going on tend to involve intelligences believed to be extraterrestrial in origin. The thing is, even when one looks at the evidence that exists as part of the literature behind the so-called UFO Phenomenon that’s publicly available as a result of the work of tireless researchers, it’s not at all clear that what’s being interacted with are solely off-world races who’ve traveled here via sophisticated spacecraft.

In fact, even if one finds this topic because of a kind sci-fi interest in advanced spacecraft and alien biological beings originating on some exo-solar planet, the data one comes across – assuming one is diligently perusing the totality of the historical data, that is – quickly turns the picture ever more obscure and confusing. And that’s because, while extraterrestrials definitely seem to be “in the mix”, as it were, the total picture is much more complex and multifaceted. Some find this complexity intriguing and inspiring, while others are left feeling unmoored from what they used to believe defined “reality”, as a result of these revelations.

Some grab a-hold of these revelations with a fervor, feeling inspired to explore elements of a clearly multi-dimensional reality that makes our former conceptions look like child’s play, while others end up abandoning the endeavor altogether, convinced that the more mind-bending aspects of the data suggest a mixture of human fraud, ego, mental instability and the like have painted a picture that can’t possibly be accurate. Of course, this exposes the fact that what we’re willing to entertain as being part of the fabric of the larger reality, says as much about who we are – as individuals, and as different cultural groups – as it does about the true nature of all that is.

How are we to make sense of this disorienting complexity? How are we to walk what some perceive to be a minefield of competing and mutually exclusive hypotheses regarding the origin and nature of these mysterious non-human Others? These are the very matters we’ll seek to address in this, the 50th episode of the Point of Convergence podcast.

When Luis Elizondo made the bold and life changing decision to leave his career within the U.S. military and intelligence community by resigning from his role spearheading AATIP – The Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program – it wasn’t because he wanted a change in scenario or a change in direction. No, on the contrary, he has repeatedly stated that the decision to leave his position was the hardest one he’s ever made, one that he wouldn’t have made if he had seen any other legitimate way forward. Furthermore, he has repeatedly asserted that his decision to resign was brought about by his desire – first and foremost – to serve his country.

In the end it became apparent to Elizondo that the intelligence he was trying to deliver up his chain of command was being brickwalled before it could get to where it needed to. In short, there were people above him who not only had no interest in seeing the intelligence gathered being delivered to the top of the chain, where it could be – as Elizondo had hoped – acted upon – but there were individuals who had apparently decided that the investigation shouldn’t be happening at all; that to investigate the matter of these unidentified aerial phenomena – aka UFOs – was, in itself, a foolhardy and ill-advised endeavor.

Of course this begs the question: why? Why was there a contingent within the US military intelligence apparatus that not only wanted to halt someone like Elizondo from delivering intel to his superiors, but who had seemingly already decided – a priori – that an investigation into UFOs was not only ill advised, but – more significantly – actually a dangerous endeavor to even pursue?

According to Elizondo, this group’s objection was based solely on religious grounds. When he had been told in no uncertain terms that the best course of action was to drop the matter altogether, Eliziodo wondered if perhaps that’s because these vehicles were top secret next-gen U.S. craft after all. When he asked if this was the case, he was told, no, that’s not what was meant. He was then told that if he had read his Bible recently, he would already know what they were.

In short, these individuals within Elizondo’s chain of command believed the intelligence behind UAPs/UFOs was actually demonic in nature. And not in some abstract – these are bad news – kind of way. No, these individuals seemed to believe that these intelligences were in fact the very demons they believed the Bible laid bare as the evil minions of Satan, dark and deceptive nefarious entities who’s only true aim was to corrupt and lead humanity away from a reliance on and relationship with the “one true God”.

Now, to be sure, a predetermined position rooted in religious fundamentalism was central to this group’s thinking. Had there been no Christian fundamentalists in positions of power, this notion likely wouldn’t have gotten off the ground to begin with. But, as it turns out, the conclusions this group of government and military insiders had come to was not solely based on pre-existing religious conviction. Rather, events that had taken place earlier in the 20th century, events such as those tied to the first ever modern sighting of UFOs by Kenneth Arnold, and of the purported crash of an alien craft along with the alleged recovery of alien life forms at Roswell, New Mexico, were central to this group’s conclusions.

Put succinctly, this group – who came to be known as the Collins Elite – believed that occultic practices foolishly pursued by human beings in the early to mid 20th century had opened a kind of portal to an alternate dimension; a netherworld that was home to these dark and deceptive intelligences. And that now these demonic forces were laying siege to humanity under the ruse of a visitation from extraterrestrials piloting sophisticated spacecraft.

But what were the actual, specific historical events that had led to the Collins Elite to these rather startling conclusions? And how was it that the personal convictions of these religious fundamentalists went so far as to influence, and some might even say, shape, much of the unofficial response of the U.S. government to the UFO Phenomenon? These are the very matters we’ll seek to understand in this, the 49th episode of the Point of Convergence podcast.

If one thing is clear as we look back over the course of 38 episodes of the Point of Convergence podcast, it’s that the so-called UFO Phenomenon is as complex and multifaceted as it is equal parts bewildering and fascinating. As I’ve mentioned numerous times before, while there is a temptation to reduce this complexity by making all of the anomalous phenomena observed and experienced about a single intelligence parading in a variety of different ways, I just don’t think this notion fits the data well when we look at it honestly and completely.

Rather, to me, when one considers the breadth and depth of the data gathered over the last century – and perhaps going back into the depth of human lore, it seems apparent that numerous non-human intelligences are appearing and interacting with us. And truth be told, the ways these various intelligences manifest before our eyes, and interact, manipulate, and sometimes control us, is just as varied as the plethora of supposed alien entities described within the literature of the UFO Phenomenon.

Some of these entities appear like what we might call solid, biological beings, with, one assumes, beating hearts and liquid blood of one color or another pulsing through their veins. Other intelligences seem to be better described as either post-biological or simply non-biological, and seem most often to manifest in forms made purely of light.

When one also considers the fullness of the data gathered, it is clear that some entities seem, from a moral point of view, perhaps no more sophisticated than us, and demonstrate, if not malevolent, then at least self-serving behaviors. And as we discussed last week, sometimes the actions of some of these Others are best described as representing a kind of symbiotic relationship with human beings – where both sides of the equation, us and them, gain something from the relationship.

Then there are beings like those encountered in the case we’re going to discuss today, the case of Israeli experiencer Yossi Ronen, who seem to demonstrate not just a moral superiority, when compared to us, but also what one might describe as a moral innocence – as if their evolution didn’t progress from self-serving to cosmocentric, so much so as the nature of their experience of reality always revealed to them, from the beginning, the interconnectedness of all that is; so that, from their point of view, harming another would be no different than harming oneself.

Yossi Ronen’s encounters with these beings was as life-altering as it was short and to the point. While the time spent in their presence was but a blink of the eye in comparison with the totality of the days of his life thus far, the impact for Ronen was as incontrovertible as it was irreversible. Never again would he be able to see reality the same way following his encounter. For he learned not just about a kind of intelligence beyond human, but a fundamental truth about the nature of reality itself, revealing a non-dual, interconnected totality best described in the term: oneness.

Yossi Ronen’s life-changing encounters with interdimensional aliens, and the revelations regarding the nature of ultimate reality that emerged as a result, are the topic of this, the 39th episode of the Point of Convergence Podcast.

In last week’s episode of the Point of Convergence podcast we discussed what I consider to be one of the most important cases in the history of the UFO Phenomenon. I speak here of the astounding life and times of Dorothy Izatt, a soft-spoken woman who managed to capture 30,000 feet of film footage documenting bizarre, astonishing, bewildering objects and lights in the sky outside her home in a suburb of Vancouver, British Columbia.

Of course, the capturing of the footage – as compelling as that is, in terms of offering clear evidence of something you might call otherworldly really taking place – was perhaps not the most important or compelling aspect of Dorothy’s experience. She also claimed to be in regular communication with the intelligences behind these dizzying visual displays. And that combination of documented evidence of contact, along with the nature of the communication that took place with these Others, is what makes this case so particularly unique.

Notice I used the term “intelligences” to describe Dorothy’s contact experiences. I do that not only to designate different individuals within one type or race of alien beings, but also to acknowledge the sheer breadth of contact Dorothy encountered – involving numerous different kinds of beings that fit the description of aliens we’d typically categorize as extraterrestrial, but also other entities, which as we mentioned last week might better be described as extradimensional, whom Dorothy saw as basically angelic in nature.

Indeed, Dorothy’s ability to see and interact with such a broad assortment of Others seems directly connected to her capacity to observe a much wider spectrum of reality than the typical human being. That capacity included her apparent ability to see energy such as microwaves, which we’ll get into later in this episode. Interestingly, her capacity for this kind of extraordinary perception seemed to arise through a combination of what one might call innate gifting, and a kind of augmentation and tuning done by some of these beings themselves.

Dorothy Izatt’s case is also fascinating and illuminating because it touches on her apparent history over multiple lifetimes – during which these Others claimed to have been in contact and ongoing relationship with her. Indeed, this piece, dealing with the expanded modalities of human beings, seems to be central to our quest to understand more about the ultimate nature of the UFO Phenomenon, and indeed of the fabric of reality itself.

All that is to say, the case of Dorothy Izatt is simply too intriguing and too illuminating to be covered adequately in a single episode. And thus, a further discussion of the ground-breaking case of Dorothy Izatt is the topic of this, the 35th episode of the Point of Convergence podcast.